Curse

Kwan Xi · Jan 19, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

I don't just advocate a hybrid build for bad monks. If you're a decent monk, it's imperative that you go hybrid. A pure healer often likes to top off bars and ends up with struggling for energy if the battle drags long. A pure protter will often prot the wrong targets and will fail to pre-prot.

.......How is the monk going hybrid going to make the person better? if the guy can't heal or protect right what makes you think he's going to do the other part any better? If for some off change they can do the other right then doesn't that support pure Heal or Prot bars then?

Part of being a good team member is also being able to work around your team's deficiencies. If a monk sucks at Protect but good at healing....maybe instead of you being Hybrid you could....I don't know compromise and go all Protect? Of course you can kick the monk and go find another one... but it would suck if the only thing keeping you from doing a Mission or Quest is because you can't find another monk to join you.

In a 8 man group its usually a standard to have 2 healing classes usually 2 monks. I don't think it matters 2 Hybrids or 1 Heal/Prot isn't much of a difference because monks staying alive should be a top priority.

However mistakes happen! I expect Human error to happen no one is perfect, but going hybrid because you think the monk is bad isn't going to help things in the long run. If one monk goes down a Hybrid monk will only be able to keep things going temporarly if that second monk isn't revived soon or is out of commission too long its only a matter of time before the surviving monk runs out of energy and/or dies whichever comes first.

Stormlord Alex · Jan 19, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

.......How is the monk going hybrid going to make the person better? if the guy can't heal or protect right what makes you think he's going to do the other part any better? If for some off change they can do the other right then doesn't that support pure Heal or Prot bars then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

At the very least, giving a shit monk a hybrid bar removes all the useless trash heals he'd usually bring (Breeze, Orison, you know... crap). Even if he never touches his prot, just having him hit Kiss and Word only has made him a much stronger player, he's no longer wasting his energy on useless shit.

... happy?

...

...

JoeKnowMo · Jan 19, 2008, 11:25 AM // 11:25

I think Alex and I have covered why a bad monk could be better for the team with a hybrid bar instead of a pure prot or heal bar. So I'll just address the case for a hybrid bar on a decent monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

However mistakes happen! I expect Human error to happen no one is perfect, but going hybrid because you think the monk is bad isn't going to help things in the long run. If one monk goes down a Hybrid monk will only be able to keep things going temporarly if that second monk isn't revived soon or is out of commission too long its only a matter of time before the surviving monk runs out of energy and/or dies whichever comes first.

I like to pug because I enjoy the social aspect of it (although it can drive me a little nuts sometimes) so I've got some experience playing with bad monks. Assuming you're a decent monk, if you go pure prot or heal, not only are you bringing a mediocre to bad bar but you're also going to be unable to save yourself or the other monk.

If you're a pure healer and you've got a squishy who doesn't kite, you won't be able to keep them alive if the other monk (pure protter) is bad.

If you're a pure protter and the entire party is under 40% health you won't be able to push red bars back up enough to prevent a party member from suddenly getting spiked (using the term loosely here) down. If the pure healer is bad with e-mgmt and isn't able to push bars back up in that situation, there's a good chance of a party wipe.

In my experience, the other monk is pretty bad about 75% of the time. If I don't spec hybrid there's a good chance that the party wipes.

For example, a mob uses scourge healing on 4 party members and your entire party is low on health. If you're the pure healer, a Heal Party or LoD will save the day but you'll end up dead and the other monk, being pure prot, will probably not be able to manage on their own. A good prot monk would PS or Sbond you, followed by RoF/Dkiss on you and RoF on any allies with Scourge Healing on them who are taking damage. Chances of this happening are almost nil in a pug. So as a pure healer, you're forced to let some party members die or kill yourself trying to save them. If you're a hybrid, you can just do it yourself so you don't die and the party doesn't wipe.

Another example, the pure prot monk is crippled and is hexed with Backfire and is the target of focus fire from a mob. So the pure protter can't kite and is afraid to cast spells. A PS and SoA would mitigate the pressure on them and a Dismiss Condition would then allow them to kite, but all you've got is WoH, ELight, Dkiss, etc. so you spam these on him but he's taking more damage than you're healing for so he eventually dies and you find yourself with low energy and no prot spells for the rest of the team.

Speaking from experience, if by chance the other monk goes down, you won't be able to manage if you're pure prot or pure heal. If you're a hybrid on the other hand you can probably still survive as the lone monk.

The only time pure heal and pure prot makes sense is when you're pugging a tough area like Slaver's exile with a gimmick build that includes a tank, a bonder, etc. Mostly because you'll get kicked if you don't run the standard build that people expect.

byteme! · Jan 20, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

I don't believe that for one second

!Just having the right skills doesn't make you a good monk, you have to be able to use them well too. I've seen monks with very questionable skill sets in PuGs do surprisingly well, on the flip side I've seen monks with a good skill set do really bad in a PuG.

You only need 2-3 heals on your bar. Anymore then that and you're just wasting skill slots. Throw in a rez and you STILL have 4 slots to bring some utility. In which case you can spec into prot and bring some protection. I really see NO REASON why you wouldn't want to go Hybrid. It's not like you having an 8 skill bar consisting of only heals or prots will make things better. I mean seriously...why would ANY monk good or bad need 8 healing spells on their bar? WHY?!

Bad monks with a Hybrid bar will be "better" then a bad monk with pure prot/heal. Notice I didn't say it will make the bad monk "good", I just said "better". Are we clear?

Pathetically easy enemies who pose absolutely no threat to your team often make it seem like your Monk's crappy skill bar is actually half decent. I'm guessing that's what you've been experiencing with some of your PuGs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valeria

[skill]glimmer of light[/skill][skill]healing ribbon[/skill][skill]heal party[/skill][skill]cure hex[/skill][skill]extinguish[/skill][skill]seed of life[/skill][skill]resurrection chant[/skill][skill]signet of capture[/skill]

more or less what i used often when i was still in need of some elite skills. glimmer of light is so fast you don't fail to heal before someone dies (unlike other 1 sec spells)

If you find yourself constantly needing energy it's not because...
1)Your Necro forgot to babysit you with BiP/Br
2)Team not waiting for you to regen
3)Over aggro
4)Your partner monk not helping enough

It's because you brought a set of 8 skills that you can't manage yourself. Look at your skill bar and the cost to use those skills. Lack of personal e-management too. A good monk can literally keep up with the entire party without ever having to wait for energy to regen. I would love to group with you using that very setup and see how long you last in the middle of a "Large" mob before you start pinging for energy (help).

When I setup my skill bar I always look at things this way. Will I be able to keep up with my team under constant pressure with this build? Will I be able to manage this bar on my own without outside help? Will I be able to hold on long enough if the other monk goes down? My moto is BiP and Br are for bad monks. This goes for all those Cathedral of Flames 600 runners who need BiP on their Smiter. You guys are bad! I've paid to watch your service and you are BAAAD and SLOOOW. What kind of monk needs an outside source to manage their energy for them? The answer is, "A bad one". This is my moto and my moto only. It makes me a better player so I'm gonna stick to it.

Burst Cancel · Jan 20, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

If someone fails at monk, the best advice is to take everything off their bar, put in Word, maybe Kiss, and a res. This might be counter-intuitive, but just mashing Word on recharge is a lot much more effective than what PuG monks can typically manage.

The team generally shouldn't have to wait for you to regen nrg. I can't remember the last time I had to stop for nrg, and I'm not even a good monk.

Tyla · Jan 20, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

What kind of monk needs an outside source to manage their energy for them? The answer is, "A bad one".

Can I steal your moto...?

Age · Jan 21, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted bybyteme
This goes for all those Cathedral of Flames 600 runners who need BiP on their Smiter. You guys are bad! I've paid to watch your service and you are BAAAD and SLOOOW. What kind of monk needs an outside source to manage their energy for them? The answer is, "A bad one". This is my moto and my moto only. It makes me a better player so I'm gonna stick to it.

I gather you never played a 600 dual smiter untill you play it you can't say this.I doesn't make you better.

Kwan Xi · Jan 22, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

ok enough bad monk does better with Hybrid BS this isn't the subject.

1) These builds are PvE ONLY not PvP
2) These builds are meant to work TOGETHER not alone! Hybrids can handle more roles then a sole task monk, but these aren't Hybrid builds so get over it.
3) I will assume you are not bad monks when using this and have a general idea on how to monk. If heroes have no problems using these builds then I will assume a pair of decent monks can do the same.
4) No need any extra energy management! The use of GoLE is an option mainly for Heroes as they sometimes use rebirth with a full energy bar.
5) WoH maybe superior at healing single targets but LoD is here as a party wide heal option useful at say.... AoE damage? Don't like it!? then use WoH and stop your complaining!

I've Played with Hybrid Builds, Healer, Protect, and Smite. Maybe it boils down to how you want to play as a monk, some people can play different roles, some only play one build that they are most comfortable with and nothing else. If your the type that will only play Hybrid and nothing else then just go stick with your Hybrid builds and STFU. I have nothing against Hybrids I use Hybrids too This setup is more like another way to play through PvE that works just as well.

These builds I made I tested it on myself and heroes, now maybe I'm wrong but if these builds are truly bad I would have serious problems playing through many of the PvE areas in the game.

I've at least played with the Hybrid build posted on here and tested it out myself to see how it compares with my setup. Which is probably more then I can say for oh 99% of you guys out here that refuse to test these builds out and immediately want cry and complain about it here. Sometimes I wonder if you guys really try to make a working build, or if you just sit on your lazy butts here and wait for someone to hand you a build that they say works.

I think this has been argued to death and I'm ready to just let this die, It seems it all boils down to if your willing to play anything other then a Hybrid or not. Those that say Hybrid only will never like this setup or even try it out so if thats the case so this will go on forever so further argument on this is just pointless. So feel free to continue to flame me, or call me a bad monk, or whatever I don't care! I'm no longer going to try to defend myself on this anymore.

Coloneh · Jan 22, 2008, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

I still think 1 Heal and 1 Protect are still just as good in PvE as 2 Hybrids monks.

I disagree.
I cant even think of a full healing bar. WoH, kiss. heal party.... thats it. you dont need more red bar go up than that. you only have so much time. you cant cast 5 skills at once. throw some prot on that bar.

Tab · Jan 22, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

[skill]Healer's Boon[/skill][skill]Heal Other[/skill][skill]Ethereal Light[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Heal Party[/skill][skill]Cure Hex[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill]
Is as close to a heal bar as you should ever get.

Melody Cross · Jan 22, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I gather you never played a 600 dual smiter untill you play it you can't say this.I doesn't make you better.

I've played it. I'll say it.

If you're a 600 doing CoF and your hero needs to be anywhere near your agro bubble, you're baed. I flag it where I want my group to stand.

On the 2 hybrids versus pure heal/prot discussion: pure heal/prot monks are easier to run because they don't step on each others toes. the prot monk doesn't heal so much. the heal monk won't end up stripping one guardian for another. Thats why people run them.

Hybrid monking is for when you know the other monks capablilities. if you're still feeling each other out (like in a PuG) heal/prot backlines are effective and less likely to see overheal or wasted prots.

But...no one has discussed Patient Spirit?

GGs

JoeKnowMo · Jan 22, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

ok enough bad monk does better with Hybrid BS this isn't the subject.

Ummm... Then what exactly is the subject? That you have builds you like to use and everybody should either say they're great or shut it?

Several of us have tried to show how using a hybrid bar is a better choice for both good and bad monks by using examples or discussing the nature of the skills themselves. It's up to you to convice us otherwise by using solid reasoning.

Quote:

These builds I made I tested it on myself and heroes, now maybe I'm wrong but if these builds are truly bad I would have serious problems playing through many of the PvE areas in the game.

Have you tried running these builds in several areas of HM? In my experience, you need 2 copies of Prot Spirit (and Aegis in physical heavy areas) to go through HM at a brisk pace.

Quote:

I've at least played with the Hybrid build posted on here and tested it out myself to see how it compares with my setup. Which is probably more then I can say for oh 99% of you guys out here that refuse to test these builds out and immediately want cry and complain about it here.

Most monks play pure heal or prot during their first few months. You also run into pure/heal prot monks when you pug. In fact, pure heal/prot is the meta in GW pve, so it's not like we're unaware of how well they work.

Quote:

I think this has been argued to death and I'm ready to just let this die, It seems it all boils down to if your willing to play anything other then a Hybrid or not.

Sensible debate is the cornerstone of a forum. You have not provided solid reasons for your suggestion that a pure heal/prot bar is just as good as a hybrid bar.

There are points that we have raised that you have simply ignored. Until you answer them, you will probably not be taken seriously.

1) The recharges for ELight, Dkiss, Words of Comfort, Orison, and LoD are 5, 3, 4, 2, and 5 seconds respectively. Therefore, 3 or more of these skills are available to you at any given time. All of them make red bars go up. So doesn't it seem redundant to have 5 of them, when you could do just as well with 3 (LoD, Dkiss, and Elight)?

2) Instead of 14 Healing, 13 DF, you could run 13 Heal, 11 DF, and 11 Prot and include skills like Aegis and Prot Spirit while losing very little of your healing power.

3) If the pure prot monk comes under heavy fire, the heal monk won't be able to keep them alive using only heals.

4) If one monk goes down mid-battle, the other monk being pure heal/prot will be unable to keep people alive.

5) The elites in the Prot line are usually subpar in PvE, except for a very few areas. ZB will usually end up costing you 10e with a pure heal monk around.

6) If the other monk is bad, you won't be able to pick up the slack as much with a pure heal/prot build.

We need to heal reasonable arguments, and not stuff like, "It works for me." I've heard that comment from monks who insist on bringing pets, warriors with mending, and elementalists with flare.

Kwan Xi · Jan 23, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Ummm... Then what exactly is the subject? That you have builds you like to use and everybody should either say they're great or shut it?

The subject was these are two builds that can be used instead of 2 Hybrids that work just as well in most PvE areas. I probably haven't made this clear but I am talking about Normal Mode, Hard Mode is another matter Hybrids are probably more useful in these areas as I primarily use Hybrids when I go through Hard Mode because the enemies are harder. I'm only human and minor mistakes are usually very costly in HM where NM it's usually no big deal.

Never did I say my builds were great or better then anyone else's. I always believed that 1 heal/prot can work in PvE and this was the setup I used for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

1) The recharges for ELight, Dkiss, Words of Comfort, Orison, and LoD are 5, 3, 4, 2, and 5 seconds respectively. Therefore, 3 or more of these skills are available to you at any given time. All of them make red bars go up. So doesn't it seem redundant to have 5 of them, when you could do just as well with 3 (LoD, Dkiss, and Elight)?

Against light groups of enemies in PvE You might not end up using all the heals on the bar thats true though I don't think two Hybrids are going to have a lot to do either.

The best use of this bar is in situations in which the group comes under heavy fire from large mobs, and/or mass hexing and conditions (ie: Disease, Suffering, Wells of Suffering, etc) where every member of the party has degen in addition to being attacked by enemies. The Heal monk with Holy Hast active and start chain casting down the party window to keep all the red bars up. I've had personal experience in this situation which some health bars can't wait the 3 seconds for skills to recharge and need healing now or they will die in this situation there is always a heal ready to use. Of course this means that the monk's energy will go down faster but as long as the healer isn't over healing things should be fine. If energy does go down to 0 LoD is only 5 energy and can be spammed for a quick party heal.

I thought I addressed this but I guess I need to be very specific.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

2) Instead of 14 Healing, 13 DF, you could run 13 Heal, 11 DF, and 11 Prot and include skills like Aegis and Prot Spirit while losing very little of your healing power.

Yes thats true, but these are not Hybrid builds. These builds are suppose to make one Monk's Job to Heal, and one to Protect. In this situation if one monk's job is to heal/prot then you might as well max out your healing/protect potential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

3) If the pure prot monk comes under heavy fire, the heal monk won't be able to keep them alive using only heals.

I'm going to assume you mean if the monk is dazed, or silenced, or hexed. In which the protect monk will have a hard time casting protects on themeslves. Holy Haste increases casting time of the spells so as long as the heal monk pays attention and concentrates their heals on that monk they should be fine.
Cure Hex can be used to remove the hex, Dismiss Condition (which can be used instead of Words of Comfort) can be used to remove dazed. Just because one monk is pinned down doesn't mean the other is useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

4) If one monk goes down mid-battle, the other monk being pure heal/prot will be unable to keep people alive.

The priority is to make sure that they don't go down in the first place one Monk alone hybrid or no doesn't have the energy to keep an 8 man party functioning alone. (assuming you didn't bring a 3rd support paragon, or Restoration Rit along). I am going to assume most monks don't start using rezes in the middle of battle, if a monk does go down the priority is to make sure they are rezed immediately, that isn't a problem with Heroes and/or Henches. As long as another member of the team can use a rez to get the monk up the remaining monk can still hold things together before things go to hell. If not (ie: res signets used up) at the very least Holy Haste does reduce the casting time of rezes too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

5) The elites in the Prot line are usually subpar in PvE, except for a very few areas. ZB will usually end up costing you 10e with a pure heal monk around.

Notice I use ZB as one that works well in most situations and is a good all purpose elite in the Protect Bar. Also I noted in the beginning that ZB can be substituted with several other elites depending on the area and/or need. Restore Conditions for areas with heavy conditions, Divert Hexes for heavy hex areas, Life Sheath is a good option too, hell you can also use Blessed Light too if you want. ZB isn't crucial to the Protect Bar its just there because it's a Protect Elite that can work in just about any situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

6) If the other monk is bad, you won't be able to pick up the slack as much with a pure heal/prot build.

Once again I am assuming that these are 2 decent monks we are talking about or 2 Heroes using these skills. If anything if you have disorganized monks this makes it easier as one person's clear task is to Heal while the other's task its to Protect. This setup also limits over healing in which 2 Hybrids could cast the same heal on one target, or stack 2 protective spirits on the same target, or accidentally stack aegis at the same time. (I believed I said that already too)

I believe the "It works for me" method if you are hero/henching which what I do 90% of the time. However if your in a PUG its different as it doesn't matter what class you are you have to adapt your build in a way that helps the party most. If the other monk is only comfortable using healing spells wouldn't it make sense to just adapt into a full protect rather then kick the monk and try to find another one that can play Hybrid? Whether for a monk it's Hybrid, or Healing, or Protect as long as they can fulfill the party's needs everything should work out for the best.

horseradish · Jan 23, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

The best use of this bar is in situations in which the group comes under heavy fire from large mobs, and/or mass hexing and conditions (ie: Disease, Suffering, Wells of Suffering, etc) where every member of the party has degen in addition to being attacked by enemies. The Heal monk with Holy Hast active and start chain casting down the party window to keep all the red bars up. I've had personal experience in this situation which some health bars can't wait the 3 seconds for skills to recharge and need healing now or they will die in this situation there is always a heal ready to use. Of course this means that the monk's energy will go down faster but as long as the healer isn't over healing things should be fine. If energy does go down to 0 LoD is only 5 energy and can be spammed for a quick party heal.

I recall the Gyala Hatchery mission. I was on my resto rit with MB&S, Spirit Light, and Soothing Memories.

I was the only one keeping the baby turtles alive, and I spammed those skills like a madman. Kept my party members and all but one baby turtle alive too. ^_^

I only needed those three skills along with energy management.

However...

In NM PvE, most anything can work. I PUGed with a group for Arborstone with a group with another monk. I was a WoH Infuse hybrid with GoLE and HP, while my comrade had Holy Haste, LoD, Smite condition/hex, and other heals.

...

...we got masters.

So your setup is viable in NM PvE, no argument there. People just have different opinions. :/

Antheus · Jan 23, 2008, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

...we got masters.

So your setup is viable in NM PvE, no argument there. People just have different opinions. :/

In almost all of PvE, a single hybrid monk is enough, using those better builds listed above. It really is that easy. It's also enough to complete FoW (speaking from all too common experience when second monk quit).

But as always, it depends on the rest of the team. For hatchery, bringing heavy anti-melee will make those turtles dance through the area. No healing needed.

One thing that no monk build can change still holds - not taking damage, or taking reduced damage is superior to healing.

Chthon · Jan 23, 2008, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

We need to heal reasonable arguments, and not stuff like, "It works for me."

1. The strongest reason to run pure heal or pure prot is the raw numerical superiority you get with 12+rune in your main attribute and 12+rune DF.

2. Another strong reason to run (nearly) pure heal at least is HBoon, which gives a very strong incentive to put the spot-healing, party-healing, and bar-topping functions all on the same bar. HBoon + 2 spot heals + 1 bar topper + 1 party heal is 5 skills. At that point you can fill the remaining spaces with prot, but it's easier to just use those spaces for condition/hex removal and maybe rez.

3. A less-frequently-applicable reason is that it works better when you need to pair with a 1-sided hench monk. You seem to think that hybrid is the best way to make up for a poor monk, but I disagree. Hybrid + Prot henchman has never had enough healing power in a pinch in my experience, not even with the old LoD. Hybrid + Mhenlo is a little more reliable.

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There are points that we have raised that you have simply ignored. Until you answer them, you will probably not be taken seriously.

1) The recharges for ELight, Dkiss, Words of Comfort, Orison, and LoD are 5, 3, 4, 2, and 5 seconds respectively. Therefore, 3 or more of these skills are available to you at any given time. All of them make red bars go up. So doesn't it seem redundant to have 5 of them, when you could do just as well with 3 (LoD, Dkiss, and Elight)?

1. Exclude LoD. It's a party heal, not a spot heal, so it's not redundant.

2. LoD aside, this point is valid. Two quick-recharging spot heals remove the need for any more spot heals.

3. However, it does not follow from there that a heal/prot hybrid is therefore automatically the best idea.

There are not two monk functions, heal and prot; there are as many as six monk functions that might be useful in a given scenario:

spot heal (what most people seem to call just "heal.")
party heal
bar top
prot
condition/hex removal
rez

It's well established that you can perform the spot heal function with plenty of space left over. That leaves 5 other functions vying for the space remaining. Why do you think prot automatically wins? Especially if you can make a spot-healer/party-healer/bar-topper/hex&condition-remover/rezzer (with HBoon!) without sacrificing your numerical superiority like you have to to make any sort of spot-healer/protector/X hybrid?
In other words: There are non-redundant ways to fill 8 skillslots without speccing 3 attributes, so why insist on using only non-redundant ways that do force you to spec 3 attributes?

Quote:

2) Instead of 14 Healing, 13 DF, you could run 13 Heal, 11 DF, and 11 Prot and include skills like Aegis and Prot Spirit while losing very little of your healing power.

This is an explanation of how hybridization is possible, not a reason why doing so is desirable.

Quote:

3) If the pure prot monk comes under heavy fire, the heal monk won't be able to keep them alive using only heals.

4) If one monk goes down mid-battle, the other monk being pure heal/prot will be unable to keep people alive.

6) If the other monk is bad, you won't be able to pick up the slack as much with a pure heal/prot build.

This is basically the same reason repeated 3 times: Hybrids can do the other monk's job to some degree. That's true, they can.

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5) The elites in the Prot line are usually subpar in PvE, except for a very few areas. ZB will usually end up costing you 10e with a pure heal monk around.

That's a reason to slap WoH on an otherwise pure prot bar, but not a reason to hybridize heal bars. Since Kwan Xi seems to be arguing more from the pure heal perspective, this argument isn't really responsive.

Taken as an argument for putting WoH on darned near every prot bar, it's a pretty good one though. (But, I must say that I got flamed and called a noob in-game today for putting WoH on a mostly prot bar.)

Sum:
I don't believe that there aren't any good reasons to hybridize. Being able to do the other monk's job is a distinct tactical advantage. But that has to be weighed against the numerical superiority of segregated bars that fill up their extra space with on-attribute and attribute-agnostic skills from the other 4 monk functions. On balance, I don't see a clear-cut case for either being flat-out better. But if I had to pick one blindly, I'd probably choose raw numerical superiority most of the time.

Savio · Jan 23, 2008, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. The strongest reason to run pure heal or pure prot is the raw numerical superiority you get with 12+rune in your main attribute and 12+rune DF.

You don't need 12+ prot or 12+ DF, you get slim benefits from having bigger numbers.

Quote:

2. Another strong reason to run (nearly) pure heal at least is HBoon, which gives a very strong incentive to put the spot-healing, party-healing, and bar-topping functions all on the same bar.

Pretty sure you can find a way to put prot on HBoon, and that having a lot of skills to make red bars go up is inefficient.

Quote:

spot heal (what most people seem to call just "heal.")
party heal
bar top
prot
condition/hex removal
rez

Bar topping is useless and res is unnecessary. Why does everyone have to be at 100% health? Why do you even need another skill for bar topping?

Why hybridization is good:
Prot is better than healing; preventing damage is more efficient than healing damage. And if one monk using prot is good, two monks using prot are even better. Additionally, you only need 10-11 in prot for it to be effective, and you're not going to dump the rest of your points in DF.

So you pump up your healing prayers attribute and bring a couple of the good healing spells so you can heal what damage does get through. Bringing more healing than that is bad because they all do the same thing - make red bars go up - and by the time you get to your second or third spell, the first should be recharged.

You can choose your elite from either branch; generally it's a healing elite because they're fairly good and there isn't much from the prot line that's equally good.

Ensign · Jan 23, 2008, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

The subject was these are two builds that can be used instead of 2 Hybrids that work just as well in most PvE areas.

What you're missing is that those two builds do not work just as well. They are *significantly weaker*. However they are not *so much* weaker that people cannot succeed with two one-dimensional Monks.

There is very little optimization pressure in PvE. Once people find something that is 'good enough', their builds stop evolving as they ride that until it is no longer 'good enough'. Finding something that is 'good enough' is a far cry from finding something that is 'as good as it gets'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. The strongest reason to run pure heal or pure prot is the raw numerical superiority you get with 12+rune in your main attribute and 12+rune DF.

One of the many reasons to hybridize a Monk is that the above is the strongest reason not to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

bar-topping

Is bad. There is never a situation in Guild Wars where it is important for you to be able to top off bars. Bars are incidentally topped off by party-wide healing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

But that has to be weighed against the numerical superiority of segregated bars

Note that the numerical superiority of 'pure' bars varies from 2% to, at most, around 6%, depending on how good your players are and the nature of the builds in question - worse players get more numerical superiority from poor skill selection and usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Additionally, you only need 10-11 in prot for it to be effective

Protective Spirit, Mend/Dismiss Condition, and Aegis are effective with as low at 7 Prot.

Kwan Xi · Jan 23, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

What you're missing is that those two builds do not work just as well. They are *significantly weaker*. However they are not *so much* weaker that people cannot succeed with two one-dimensional Monks.

There is very little optimization pressure in PvE. Once people find something that is 'good enough', their builds stop evolving as they ride that until it is no longer 'good enough'. Finding something that is 'good enough' is a far cry from finding something that is 'as good as it gets'.

Yeah nice job see two builds I use in PvE, I decide to share them and you assume I don't use or play anything else maybe you should read the other posts I made before shooting off like that.

I guess I would have to show you every single freakin build I use or have used in just about every single god damn area and situation before you can believe I'm capable of more then single heal or protect right?

Part of the fun in Guild Wars for me is to develop a build that will work will in whatever task I have at hand whether it is PvE, or PvP. I take it as a personal offense that when I decide to share two builds and you think that its the only builds I've ever developed and the only way I ever play in the game.

You know your the exact type of person I hate replying to this post. At least the people that disagree with me take the time to post some valuable reasoning, constructive feedback, and some alternatives. You see something non Hybrid and you just decide to jump in and say it sucks with everyone, give no real reasons why, and add that anyone using this setup or tries anything non Hybrid is automatically one dimensional and bad!

Yichi · Jan 23, 2008, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

...Part of the fun in Guild Wars for me is to develop a build that will work will in whatever task I have at hand whether it is PvE, or PvP...

99.999999999999999% of all PvP builds will obliterate PvE with ease.

99.999999999999999% of all PvE builds will be complete and utter garbage in anything other than RA